Aesthetic Titans #3: Inside the Plastic Surgery Beat with Joan Kron

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Welcome to Park Avenue
Plastic Surgery Class,

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the podcast where we explore controversies
and breaking issues in plastic

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surgery. I'm your co-host, Summer Hardy,

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a clinical assistant at Bass
Plastic Surgery in New York City.

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I'm excited to be here with Dr. Lawrence
Bass, Park Avenue plastic surgeon,

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educator and technology innovator.

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This episode is another in
our Aesthetic Titan series.

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Who are we talking to today, Dr. Bass?

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Mostly we're talking to physicians
and scientists in this series,

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but there are some non-physicians who've
contributed to our understanding of the

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field of plastic surgery
in really powerful ways.

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Today we're talking to
one of those individuals.

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Joan Crohn is an award-winning journalist
who has written for the New York

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Times, New York Magazine,
the Wall Street Journal,

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and then spent 25 years as an editor at

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Allure Magazine. Starting in 1991,

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she established routine
journalistic reporting about plastic

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surgery at a time when no
one else would cover it.

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She went on to write the book Wanting,

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Fearing and Having a
Facelift and more recently

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produced the award-winning film,

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Take My Nose Please.

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This film can be streamed on
Amazon Prime Video. Welcome, Joan.

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I'm delighted to have you join us.

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Hi, Larry. Nice to see you again.

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So to kick things off, can you tell
us how you got involved in journalism?

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I'll try and give you
the very short version.

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I was a costume designer
originally trained as a theatrical

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costume designer at Yale Drama School.

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I ended up married in
Philadelphia to a doctor and I was

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involved in running a cultural
institution called the

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Arts Council. And at one point,

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three young men who had just
graduated from the University of

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Pennsylvania said they were starting an
underground newspaper and they'd like me

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to be the society editor because they

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thought I was in society, which I wasn't.

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But I knew everyone in society and
I knew everyone in the underground.

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And I said, "I can't write." And they
said, "Well, everybody can write." I said,

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"Well, I'll try it.

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" And I did a story about my best
friend was growing marijuana in

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her backyard. I went to the harvest,

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the marijuana harvest, and I said,

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"I think I can write." And I
called one of the young men

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who had asked me to be the
society editor and I said,

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"I've got a story for you.
" And he said, "Oh, it's too bad.

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We've lost our backer. Take it to
Philadelphia Magazine," which I did.

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I was hired immediately and the
editor said I was the natural

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and I wanted to go to journalism school.
And he said, "No, they'll ruin you.

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I'll teach you everything
you need to know.

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" And that's how I became a journalist.

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What got you interested in covering
plastic surgery specifically?

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Well, I went from Philadelphia Magazine.

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I left Philadelphia
actually and got a divorce.

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And when I arrived with
my Philadelphia Magazine

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credentials,

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I was hired by New York Magazine
and then the New York Times

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and the Wall Street Journal. I mean,

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I started having a real career
covering all kinds of things that were

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more like covering acquisitions.

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I could cover design,
architecture, the home, shopping,

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fashion.

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I covered all those things that are
considered the frivolous things.

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And I was hired by Allure
Magazine to cover the

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psychology of beauty.

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During that time in the very
beginning of Allure Magazine was 1991.

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The editor had weekly meetings.
Her name was Linda Wells.

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She came to an early meeting and said,

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"I want to see if plastic surgeons talk

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patients into surgery
that they don't need.

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I've asked a writer that I know to do the

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story." I went to the editor
after the meeting and I said,

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"I know that writer. She's 35 years old.

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I'm in my 60s. I'm the oldest person here.

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I was married to a surgeon,
not a plastic surgeon,

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but a general surgeon. I
know how to talk to doctors.

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I watched operations.

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I think I should do this
story." And she said, "Well,

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try it if you like, but I'm not
taking the other person off it.

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" In about a week I made four appointments

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and gotten the first appointment,
wrote it up and brought it into her.

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She read it as I watched her and she said,

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"Oh my God,

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keep going. " By the time I
got to the fourth interview,

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I signed up to have a facelift,
which was not in the assignment.

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They were not paying for it.

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I had the surgery and
I called her as I was

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recovering and I said, "Linda,

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you have got to give me this beat.

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This is the worst
covered subject in all of

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journalism and I'm going to
do something for you and I

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guarantee you I'm going to get you
some good stories." And that's how I

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started covering plastic surgery.

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And my first story was
shopping for a facelift.

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No, shopping for a new face.

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And the second story was about a
woman who died on the operating table

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having a facelift. After that,

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I had everybody, all the readers
eating out of the palm of my hand,

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waiting for the next story.

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Very soon I added a column,

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a monthly column that was called
Scalpel News when I would talk about

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new inventions or new developments
in plastic surgery and then I

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would do feature stories.
And then I did that for 25 years and won

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an awful lot of prizes.

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Now at that time when you got started,

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it was really a different era of
plastic surgery compared to today.

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So tell me your impressions
of the prevailing focus and

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atmosphere at the start of the
1990s compared with the way things

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are today. You.

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See that I'm laughing as
you're asking this question.

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I don't know if your podcast people can

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see me laughing, but I can tell you
that in the beginning there was no

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liposuction. There was no Botox.

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There was no fillers except collagen.

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It was a business of collagen and surgery.

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Stone knives and bare skins.

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Practically. But it's very interesting.

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I was very interested in the history
of plastic surgery and I did a

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lot of research in it and I
became the expert at that time

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because the one thing that
did exist was phenol peels

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and PCA peels.

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And I was fascinated
with the history of that.

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And I've always wanted
to do a movie about that,

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but I haven't gotten around
to it yet. But I'm only 96,

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so I have a couple more years.

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Right. We'll look forward to that
one sometime in the next few.

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But that's an interesting story because
peels were not something that were

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really medical. They
were done by lay peelers,

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not by medical people.

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And it took a long time before medicine
and the plastic surgeons would take a

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serious look at it. But once they did,

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it got incorporated into the
specialty and it's gone on from there.

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And of course,

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chasing wrinkles a really important
part of what we do in plastic

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surgery.

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You have to really appreciate how

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brave the patients were to
undergo some of these early

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treatments because they were dangerous.

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Yu could die from a phenol
peel and some people

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did and they were painful.

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And if they weren't done
properly very slowly,

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it was very dangerous
because at that time the

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doctors were just getting
interested in the peel.

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They introduced me. Several of the
doctors in your society, Larry,

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introduced me to a lay
peeler in California.

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And he gave me,

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he used to call me on the
telephone at 11 o'clock at night,

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New York Time and say, Joan,

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I want you to write my memoir and I'm
going to tell you everything I know.

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And by the time I got done
with those telephone calls,

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I had the formulas, I had the histories,

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I had the movie stars.

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I had the letter from Lana
Turner that thanking this

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peeler for changing her
life because the stars could

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not exist in Hollywood
if they started aging.

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And I have a whole chapter in my
book, which by the way, Larry,

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my book is called Lift: Warning,
Fearing and Having a Facelift.

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So if anybody wants to read it,

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there's a whole chapter
about the history of peeling.

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Okay. So then going forward from there,

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what has been the 21st century approach
to plastic surgery in the media?

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Well,

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what the media likes and what people
want to watch on television is a

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lot different than the doctors would like.

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Let me go back a little bit.

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The one story that I want to tell you
about the stories that people were

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doing when I started covering,

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because I was a journalist and I was
covering from a journalistic point of

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view, being fair,

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interviewing people on
both sides, pro and con.

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But the stories that were being
written at that time in the early

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'90s when I got into this were mostly

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writers who had never covered
medicine and may not have been

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very experienced journalists
who wanted a facelift

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and would make a deal with a doctor.

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And then they would write about the
facelift and promote the doctor.

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So they were very one-sided stories,

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mostly dedicated to promoting
a particular doctor.

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And that was, in my opinion,

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very dangerous.
And the other popular story at that time

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was best doctor list.

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I've never done a best doctor list.

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I'm the only person who covers plastic
surgery who's never done a best doctor

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list because I think it is so unfair.

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Because if you can only name five names,
who are you going to choose? I mean,

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it's just impossible.

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There's so many good doctors
that nobody knows about.

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We at Allure never did a best doctor list,

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but every other women's
magazine has done them.

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And what happens is depending
on who's pushing home,

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they can completely skew what
readers are searching for.

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And so if doctor has a particular
name that they've put on a

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procedure,

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let's say they have a deep plane lift and

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somebody talks about it in a very
personal story. Well, what do you know?

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Everybody comes to doctors and says,

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"I want a deep plane lift," when they
may not need a deep plane lift. And so I

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consider that kind of dangerous.

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But as you point out, it's
become extraordinarily popular.

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Doctors list not just in plastic
surgery, but in every field of medicine,

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best school lists,

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best hospital lists sell
a lot of magazines and

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newspapers.

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Well,

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a best hospital list can be
maybe more accurate because

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at least they can publish
something statistically.

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Best doctor lists are based
on recommendations and they

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depend on who you ask.

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Have you seen a change with social
media and the portrayal of plastic

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surgery?

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Well,

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social media has the
interest in appearance.

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I mean, I'm the last person who said this.

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Everybody has said that
the selfie has transformed

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plastic surgery.

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People take selfies and then they
start evaluating themselves. I mean,

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I'm looking at my picture right
now as I'm talking to you.

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And I guess if I were back in my

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30s and 40s and I were looking
at myself, I'd probably say,

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"Wait a minute, I see something
here. I see something there.

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My nose looks awfully big.
What's going on? " So yes,

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certainly social media
has made plastic surgery

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explode and it made the

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patients much younger.

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When I started writing plastic surgery,

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I was 62 or 63 years old.

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I wrote it until what? I
don't even know how old I was.

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In

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2015 when I stopped
writing for Allure and I

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was born in 1928,

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somebody can do some fast ficturing.
Where was I in my 80s?

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And when Alinda lost her job at Allure,

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I lost my job at Allure.
Because Linda had always said,

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as long as I had my mind,

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I could write for Allure
no matter how old I was.

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If she still had a job, I could
still be at Allure. And then I'm 96,

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but luckily I'm not at Allure.

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Right. You've gone on to
bigger and better things.

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Well,

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I went on to be interested in
making movies because I think

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people like to look at pictures and
they don't want to read anymore.

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00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:15,990
That's a very big problem when you're
trying to explain complicated things to

242
00:16:16,070 --> 00:16:20,450
readers and they don't want
to read. And you know, Larry,

243
00:16:21,070 --> 00:16:25,610
that a lot of doctors can play

244
00:16:25,690 --> 00:16:27,950
games with the before and after pictures.

245
00:16:28,450 --> 00:16:33,130
And there are doctors
that we know of. I mean,

246
00:16:33,270 --> 00:16:35,750
I can't name them right
off the top of my head,

247
00:16:35,830 --> 00:16:40,650
but I mean I know doctors have
been exposed for borrowing

248
00:16:40,750 --> 00:16:45,350
other doctors' pictures. I've
even interviewed a doctor.

249
00:16:45,990 --> 00:16:49,670
He worked for an older doctor
who was really failing.

250
00:16:50,670 --> 00:16:54,870
And when the patient went to sleep, he
would take over and do the operation.

251
00:16:55,390 --> 00:16:56,223
So I mean,

252
00:16:56,770 --> 00:17:00,590
there are all kinds of games that
could be played and it's unfortunate.

253
00:17:00,750 --> 00:17:05,430
I think the biggest problem
is that today people

254
00:17:05,550 --> 00:17:09,670
read about something and all
they know is the name of that

255
00:17:10,110 --> 00:17:13,390
procedure, whether it's an
injection, whether it's a peel,

256
00:17:14,190 --> 00:17:18,390
that they're going to do something for
their skin. And they go and asking for

257
00:17:18,430 --> 00:17:23,070
these things by name. And if
anybody calls me and they say,

258
00:17:23,430 --> 00:17:25,970
"What do you think of this peel, Joan?

259
00:17:26,030 --> 00:17:28,070
Or what do you think
of this light source?"

260
00:17:29,590 --> 00:17:34,230
I say it doesn't matter
what technique they

261
00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:36,170
use, what laser they use,

262
00:17:36,690 --> 00:17:40,010
who is holding the wand of the laser?

263
00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:44,810
Is it an aesthetician who
has never done it before?

264
00:17:45,270 --> 00:17:50,170
Is there a doctor in the
office in the spa where

265
00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:54,570
you're getting this done
who is going to supervise?

266
00:17:54,830 --> 00:17:59,410
Or is the doctor 50 miles away?
And if you had an emergency,

267
00:18:00,170 --> 00:18:02,250
the doctor couldn't be there in time.

268
00:18:03,910 --> 00:18:08,790
So these are the problems
that I addressed in my column

269
00:18:09,150 --> 00:18:11,670
every month in Allure.

270
00:18:13,010 --> 00:18:14,850
And that's a really
important point. I mean,

271
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:20,250
all of those things are
tools and tools are good,

272
00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:22,090
but it's not a magic bullet.

273
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:27,390
Some particular tool
can't magically cure all

274
00:18:27,530 --> 00:18:28,150
ills.

275
00:18:28,150 --> 00:18:32,950
And it's about the experience of
the providers and the relationship

276
00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:37,730
working together to plan
for the most concerning

277
00:18:37,770 --> 00:18:42,750
aesthetic features that are
important and significant

278
00:18:43,030 --> 00:18:45,350
for the individual patient.

279
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:48,550
That's true. And also

280
00:18:50,370 --> 00:18:55,070
I know of cases where people have
had a lot of liposuction say,

281
00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:58,030
and in the course of that,

282
00:18:58,390 --> 00:19:03,310
they might've gotten a
lot of local anesthesia in

283
00:19:03,370 --> 00:19:07,730
addition to any twilight
sleep or real anesthesia.

284
00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:09,443
General.

285
00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:14,450
General, thank you. In addition to local,

286
00:19:14,510 --> 00:19:16,650
they've gotten some general anesthesia,

287
00:19:17,170 --> 00:19:22,170
but they don't want to pay for somebody
for a nurse to take care of them

288
00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:23,530
while they're recovering.

289
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:29,110
And they have a girlfriend or a
husband or a friend down the street,

290
00:19:29,410 --> 00:19:33,850
a relative, and the relative
falls asleep the first night.

291
00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:37,050
And if they've had a
lot of local anesthesia,

292
00:19:38,490 --> 00:19:40,130
the blood pressure can drop.

293
00:19:40,950 --> 00:19:45,930
And there have been cases
when patients have succumbed

294
00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:50,750
to that local anesthesia,
which everybody thinks, oh,

295
00:19:50,850 --> 00:19:54,690
if it's local anesthesia,
it's perfectly okay. Well,

296
00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:59,750
it's not perfectly okay if
you've had a ton of local

297
00:19:59,830 --> 00:20:03,810
anesthesia. At least that's
where I know you're the doctor.

298
00:20:03,910 --> 00:20:07,430
I'm not a doctor, but I
have covered some cases.

299
00:20:08,010 --> 00:20:12,270
The thing I always say
about the facelift and big

300
00:20:12,830 --> 00:20:17,110
liposuction cases and tummy tucks
and whatnot, breast implant,

301
00:20:18,170 --> 00:20:19,390
when you're recovering,

302
00:20:19,670 --> 00:20:24,270
get some professional to
watch you who will stay awake,

303
00:20:24,670 --> 00:20:29,130
take your blood pressure,
because that is a danger time.

304
00:20:29,570 --> 00:20:33,610
Yeah, that's really important. And
that actually is a change not in media,

305
00:20:33,730 --> 00:20:38,690
but in medicine over the past
few decades that when I trained,

306
00:20:38,770 --> 00:20:43,170
we had two floors of Manhattan Eye
Ear and Throat Hospital just for

307
00:20:43,250 --> 00:20:47,530
plastic surgery inpatients.
And now of course,

308
00:20:47,710 --> 00:20:52,650
all of that surgery is done
ambulatory and mostly in an

309
00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:53,730
office setting.

310
00:20:54,610 --> 00:20:58,730
And that's been enabled by improvements
in anesthesia and other things,

311
00:20:58,990 --> 00:21:02,450
but it's still medical care. It's beauty,

312
00:21:02,910 --> 00:21:07,810
but it's medical care and it
has to be taken very seriously.

313
00:21:08,410 --> 00:21:09,570
And my office staff,

314
00:21:09,670 --> 00:21:14,590
people like Summer will tell you
I'm always emphasizing to them

315
00:21:14,770 --> 00:21:16,390
that this is not a game.

316
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:21,390
This is a deadly serious
undertaking where safety has

317
00:21:21,490 --> 00:21:25,850
to be item number one
every day when you get up.

318
00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:30,710
Well, that's absolutely the case.

319
00:21:30,970 --> 00:21:35,970
And the other thing is everybody
knows that I've had three facelifts.

320
00:21:36,450 --> 00:21:37,610
The first facelift,

321
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:43,110
I was in Manhattan Eye and I
was stayed overnight because my

322
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:45,760
doctor said to me, "If you're over 60,

323
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,280
I want you in a hospital."
And I was over 60

324
00:21:50,930 --> 00:21:55,130
and I was in a hospital and
I had a very good recovery.

325
00:21:56,190 --> 00:22:00,910
By the time I had my third
or maybe my second and

326
00:22:01,030 --> 00:22:01,863
third,

327
00:22:02,270 --> 00:22:06,490
I was recovering in a hotel.

328
00:22:07,690 --> 00:22:10,110
It's so funny, you can't remember.

329
00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:13,490
All these things kind of fade away.

330
00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:17,120
My last facelift was in 2005,

331
00:22:18,050 --> 00:22:23,010
almost 20 years ago. Is that right? Yes.

332
00:22:23,290 --> 00:22:24,150
Yes, yes.

333
00:22:25,580 --> 00:22:26,040
Yes.

334
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:26,260
You've.

335
00:22:26,260 --> 00:22:26,450
Got.

336
00:22:26,450 --> 00:22:27,440
It exactly right.

337
00:22:28,260 --> 00:22:31,700
I know that there was no
hospital that I could recover in.

338
00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:33,800
So where was I?

339
00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:39,480
Yeah, it's the sweet
hotel. But with a nurse,

340
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,900
somebody to watch and monitor
and in communication with your

341
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:49,040
surgeon that the care is not
done when the last stitch

342
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:50,580
or the bandage goes on.

343
00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:54,900
The care continues for weeks,

344
00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:58,480
months during the recovery.
Also very important.

345
00:22:59,420 --> 00:23:01,680
So yeah, there's so many things.

346
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,380
And of course I cover all those
in my book. I'm sure you have one.

347
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:07,760
Don't you have a book, Clary?

348
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,980
I don't have a book. I have lots
of articles and book chapters,

349
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:14,940
but I've not written a book yet.

350
00:23:15,060 --> 00:23:19,490
Oh, well, okay. Then we can
push my book. Okay. Absolutely.

351
00:23:19,580 --> 00:23:22,030
You can buy it on Amazon for at least $4.

352
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,100
And a really great explanation of

353
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,730
the whole constellation of
what happens around having a

354
00:23:32,860 --> 00:23:33,693
facelift.

355
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:39,280
It's really the authoritative
discussion on the subject.

356
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,460
Well, I appreciate that very much.

357
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:48,060
I did have doctors saying that they
recommended my book and I was always

358
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,640
very proud of that.

359
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,720
Lucky in a way that my first
husband was a general surgeon

360
00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:58,700
and it enabled me to,

361
00:24:00,060 --> 00:24:02,380
first of all, because when I was married,

362
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,740
I believed that a wife should
know what her husband does.

363
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,620
And so I would go and watch
surgery. And of course,

364
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,420
the first time it was an appendicitis,

365
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:14,780
an appendix operation.

366
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,560
And I don't think I lasted too
long in the operating room.

367
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,660
But as I continued to go,
I got braver and braver.

368
00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:29,120
And I remember when I went
down to Brazil to cover

369
00:24:29,580 --> 00:24:30,660
Dr. Pitangi,

370
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:35,040
perhaps the most famous plastic
surgeon in the world at that time,

371
00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:40,320
and he didn't want to let me in
the operating room. And I said,

372
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:41,553
"You can.

373
00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:46,760
I'm used to watching surgery.
I'll be okay." And so he stationed

374
00:24:47,740 --> 00:24:52,440
a resident with me in the
ante room and he made me

375
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:57,180
watch his operation on closed circuit

376
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:00,980
video until he saw that I wasn't fainting.

377
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:03,440
And then he let me into
the operating room.

378
00:25:04,340 --> 00:25:09,120
I have witnessed quite a lot
of operations and I don't

379
00:25:09,180 --> 00:25:10,020
faint anymore.

380
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,380
This has been a really interesting
discussion to listen to.

381
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,640
I'm going to shift topics a bit
and ask if you've seen a difference

382
00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:25,320
in a person's willingness to acknowledge
plastic surgery publicly over the past

383
00:25:25,660 --> 00:25:27,800
few decades, if that's
changed at all in your view.

384
00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:32,300
Oh, Summer, that's such a
fun question. Thank you.

385
00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:37,460
It has changed, but not that much.

386
00:25:38,740 --> 00:25:43,200
Even though people say
that it has changed,

387
00:25:43,820 --> 00:25:48,120
I dare them to prove
it. Well, first of all,

388
00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:52,420
the more famous you are, the more
well-known you are, the less you kill.

389
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:53,740
That's the first thing.

390
00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:58,160
There are very few people who
are well-known who confess.

391
00:25:58,980 --> 00:26:00,500
And if they do confess,

392
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,700
they only confess a small percentage.

393
00:26:05,580 --> 00:26:10,220
In other words, it's okay
now. What's okay is to say,

394
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:11,620
"Oh,

395
00:26:11,620 --> 00:26:16,360
I've had a little Botox." We've
gotten to that point where they can

396
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,540
say that or where Jane Fonda can say,

397
00:26:20,860 --> 00:26:25,020
"I had a facelift, but I really regret it.

398
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,440
I don't. Really, Jane? You
regret it? I don't think so.

399
00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:32,173
I'm sorry.

400
00:26:34,260 --> 00:26:36,920
My question is which one do you regret?

401
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,073
Okay.

402
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:44,520
She even published the name of her doctor

403
00:26:47,620 --> 00:26:49,900
on Facebook. Well,

404
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,380
does that tell us something
about perhaps she felt an

405
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:57,640
obligation to name him?

406
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:03,700
I feel very sorry for the doctor
who did my three facelifts

407
00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:08,300
because I love my doctor.
I was very happy with him.

408
00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:13,760
I have never revealed his name
publicly. If a friend has asked me,

409
00:27:15,260 --> 00:27:18,960
I've told a few friends,
but I've never published it.

410
00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:24,060
I've never written it because I
thought it was really in bad taste and

411
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,600
I paid for my operations
and I just felt that I

412
00:27:29,620 --> 00:27:33,340
didn't want people to think
I was pushing a doctor.

413
00:27:34,060 --> 00:27:35,740
It's an issue in journalism,

414
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,360
but the fact that I went back
to him twice after the first

415
00:27:41,420 --> 00:27:44,720
time means I was quite satisfied.

416
00:27:45,940 --> 00:27:50,320
If I were working at the New York
Times at the time that I was doing it,

417
00:27:50,380 --> 00:27:53,620
of course that would be very forbidden.
I mean,

418
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,620
times is really tough.

419
00:27:56,740 --> 00:27:59,640
They were tough on plastic
surgery in a lot of ways.

420
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:04,600
They wouldn't cover it except to
disparage it at the time when you first

421
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,780
got involved in this area. Of course,

422
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,480
they later realized there's
so much public interest that

423
00:28:11,580 --> 00:28:16,300
teaching about it is a worthwhile

424
00:28:16,380 --> 00:28:17,240
undertaking,

425
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,720
something educational that doesn't
endorse it or that tells some of the

426
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,500
pros along with some of the
cons, rather than just again,

427
00:28:27,860 --> 00:28:30,440
disparaging something or telling cons.

428
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:33,380
But it's really funny.

429
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:38,760
Recently I wanted to
reach a particular movie

430
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,640
star who lived in a
particular city that was

431
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:44,553
not New York.

432
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,340
I called a dermatologist in that
city and I'm not naming names.

433
00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:52,380
Okay? I'm sorry.

434
00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:53,480
No.

435
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:54,240
I'm.

436
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,060
With you. We want to keep it

437
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:01,420
philosophical and educational, not gossip.

438
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,240
Okay. I'm with you. It's a fun story.

439
00:29:05,980 --> 00:29:10,040
So I called a dermatologist and I said,

440
00:29:11,420 --> 00:29:16,300
"I know that this particular
star lives in your city

441
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:21,440
and I wish I knew how
to reach her." Then the

442
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,620
dermatologist said to me, "No, Joan,

443
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,980
you know I can't talk about my
patients." So I had actually

444
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,860
hit bingo on this woman

445
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,580
dermatologist,

446
00:29:38,820 --> 00:29:43,440
but I'm not saying either of their names.

447
00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:44,453
Okay.

448
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,680
Fair enough. Fair enough.

449
00:29:49,380 --> 00:29:54,100
But I do want to talk about
television because I think I

450
00:29:54,140 --> 00:29:57,180
didn't answer Summer's question properly.

451
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,120
What was very popular Or in
the late '90s and the 2000s

452
00:30:03,780 --> 00:30:07,860
was first of all, the reality
shows about plastic surgeons.

453
00:30:08,340 --> 00:30:12,200
And remember people were
just fascinated with Dr.

454
00:30:13,050 --> 00:30:14,720
90210 or whatever it was.

455
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,060
And so plastic surgeons in
California particularly were vying

456
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,340
to get on that particular show
because it was like a lifestyle

457
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,560
show about a plastic surgeon. I mean,

458
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:33,580
it was so much publicity and
of course they always intimated

459
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,400
that they had famous people.
Well, every plastic surgeon,

460
00:30:37,980 --> 00:30:42,680
I think there is not a plastic surgeon
who hasn't done some celebrity.

461
00:30:43,780 --> 00:30:46,720
I mean, if they live in Middle America,

462
00:30:46,820 --> 00:30:51,140
maybe it's the governor of the state
or maybe it's the mayor of their city.

463
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,680
But I mean, in California,

464
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,620
all they have out there are actress and
actresses. They're going to find some

465
00:30:59,660 --> 00:31:04,560
famous people to same about New York.
So everybody has famous patient.

466
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,480
The other popular show is The Botched.

467
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:11,333
Sure.

468
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,240
People love Bot.

469
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,860
And I remember doing interviews
not only with the doctors

470
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,080
on Botch, but with people who
watched Botch. And I said,

471
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,860
why do you like a show that's
only about things that are

472
00:31:28,740 --> 00:31:33,200
mostly big accidents that
have to be repaired or about

473
00:31:33,260 --> 00:31:38,160
people who have craved so much
surgery that they're really out of the

474
00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:39,053
mainstream?

475
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,380
That is not what plastic
surgery patients are about.

476
00:31:43,860 --> 00:31:48,780
The mainstream patient
of plastic surgery just

477
00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:52,340
wants something to make
him or he look better.

478
00:31:53,380 --> 00:31:56,140
They don't want 20 procedures.

479
00:31:57,260 --> 00:32:02,140
So when you just focus on people who
have had excessive numbers of procedures

480
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:06,980
and they want to look like Barbie or
they want to look like Johnny Carson,

481
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,240
this is not what real
plastic surgery is about,

482
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,540
but Botch is so popular
because the people who watch it

483
00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:21,680
feel a sense of superiority
when they see these

484
00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:24,900
people who have made bad decisions,

485
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,580
bad choices in their life
because they've chosen doctors

486
00:32:29,620 --> 00:32:34,500
without doing any research
about their abilities or they're

487
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,640
asking for so much and they've found
the one doctor in their town who will

488
00:32:39,780 --> 00:32:43,080
do it when they should have said no.

489
00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:48,820
Botch does something
psychological for the viewer,

490
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,760
which has really nothing
to do with the surgery.

491
00:32:52,220 --> 00:32:56,700
It has to do with them
feeling smarter, cleverer,

492
00:32:56,980 --> 00:33:01,380
having better judgment than these
patients that they're making fun of.

493
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,040
So I think that's unfortunate,
but again, it's good television.

494
00:33:09,820 --> 00:33:11,880
So switching topics once again,

495
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,000
what do you think the role
of the facelift is today?

496
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:18,580
Today,

497
00:33:18,580 --> 00:33:23,380
I think the big problem that I see in
plastic surgery is that there are too

498
00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:24,460
many injections.

499
00:33:25,220 --> 00:33:29,900
People believe they call
everything facelift in a

500
00:33:30,020 --> 00:33:33,900
bottle, facelift and a
syringe. It's not a facelift.

501
00:33:34,980 --> 00:33:37,400
A facelift is a facelift and it's surgery.

502
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:44,000
If it's a syringe facelift and
you're doing it over and over

503
00:33:44,060 --> 00:33:46,560
again, you are distorting your face.

504
00:33:47,260 --> 00:33:51,920
You're distorting your lips
if you do it once. I mean,

505
00:33:51,980 --> 00:33:53,680
there are people who have very,

506
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,520
very thin lips and I can
understand when they have a tiny,

507
00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:03,560
tiny bit of filler because
they really have a deficiency

508
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:04,553
in their lips.

509
00:34:04,980 --> 00:34:09,140
But if they have normal lips and
they want to make them bigger

510
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,460
because they think that that's a
good style and they'd like to look

511
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:19,300
like a Kardashian, then they
are distorting their faces.

512
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:21,480
I mean, just watch the...

513
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:27,220
Sometimes doing very
little can make very large

514
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,640
difference and that is
where I think very little

515
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,860
injections can make a big difference.
And if you don't have a real

516
00:34:36,940 --> 00:34:41,720
deficiency where you are adding
filler and you're adding filler

517
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,340
because you think it's stylish
to have full-blown lips,

518
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:52,640
you are really distorting your own
beautiful face and it's paphetic.

519
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,160
This is the big push-pull that's
taking place nowadays between

520
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,040
surgical and non-surgical things. I mean,

521
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:07,020
we'd love to accomplish
whatever the aesthetic goal is

522
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,700
in the least invasive way possible,

523
00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:15,060
but the reality is sometimes
it is about surgery and just

524
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,540
taking a non-surgical
modality like filler,

525
00:35:19,340 --> 00:35:24,200
which in proper measure can
be helpful and doing too much

526
00:35:24,260 --> 00:35:27,900
of it, then you have too
much of a good thing.

527
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,760
It's distorting and it's a bad idea.

528
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:33,200
And on top of that,

529
00:35:33,260 --> 00:35:37,880
you have people out there showing
what they've done and popularizing it

530
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,200
in social media on the internet,

531
00:35:41,820 --> 00:35:46,660
every place you look makes it
very hard for people to get a

532
00:35:46,780 --> 00:35:51,520
good reality testing basis
for making decisions.

533
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,900
So with all the noise out there, Joan,

534
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,100
how do you think people
should get to the truth?

535
00:35:58,660 --> 00:36:00,340
Well, I just think it's really hard.

536
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:05,960
I have a lot of compassion
for people who would like

537
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,320
things, who want things,
but don't know who to ask,

538
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,720
don't have the friends
because when everybody's

539
00:36:13,860 --> 00:36:17,360
lying and only telling
half of what they had,

540
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,400
how can you make a decision?

541
00:36:20,780 --> 00:36:23,180
Even when they say that
they're helping you,

542
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,440
they might not be telling you
everything. They just tell you a little.

543
00:36:29,580 --> 00:36:30,800
I don't have a solution.

544
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,220
I tried my best to only quote

545
00:36:36,340 --> 00:36:39,950
doctors that I felt had
good reputations and

546
00:36:41,260 --> 00:36:43,220
had board certification.

547
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:48,280
That was something that we took
very seriously at Allure and

548
00:36:48,860 --> 00:36:52,440
I felt that because when I was
married to the general surgeon,

549
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,360
he taught me something that stuck
with me the rest of my life.

550
00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:01,000
Remember, he did not do plastic surgery.

551
00:37:01,260 --> 00:37:03,780
So he was just talking
about surgery in general,

552
00:37:04,420 --> 00:37:06,780
but he said when somebody reads,

553
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:12,260
let's say in Time Magazine or Newsweek
or the magazines we had when I

554
00:37:12,420 --> 00:37:14,480
was married to him in the 1950s,

555
00:37:15,340 --> 00:37:19,660
he said they were more careful
about their money than asking about

556
00:37:20,540 --> 00:37:25,260
surgical procedures.
He found it very dangerous that

557
00:37:25,460 --> 00:37:29,060
media could be very dangerous
for surgery in general.

558
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,280
And I saw that in when I was covering,

559
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,640
because every new procedure right now,

560
00:37:37,720 --> 00:37:42,520
especially there are all these
influences online and they're

561
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:46,600
all pushing these so - called cosmetic

562
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,480
treatments, which because
they're not surgical,

563
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,960
they're non-surgery,

564
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,400
but they can be dangerous or you can be

565
00:37:58,480 --> 00:37:59,600
allergic to them. Or

566
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,160
do I really want a thousand
needles in my face? I don't.

567
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,800
I don't care how many
articles I read about.

568
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:14,000
Please tell me the name
of the needling thing.

569
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:17,480
Oh, the microneedling here.

570
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,440
Needles. Microneedle. Thank you.

571
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,680
I don't care how many articles I read
about microneedling and how fabulous it is

572
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,520
and they're going to put some wonderful
proteins in my skin and it's going to

573
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:31,160
blossom and it's going to be great.

574
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:36,120
I do not want a thousand
needles in my face. That's it.

575
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,240
I'm guessing you don't
have any tattoos either.

576
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,320
If I reach a hundred, I'm going
to have a very small tattoo.

577
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,360
Okay. But that's that thousand needles.

578
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,880
I had this experience even
as far back as the '90s and

579
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,200
certainly after Restylane came
around in the mid 2000s where

580
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,200
people would come in with
pictures for magazines of models

581
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,120
who had the very puffy lips that
were all full in the corners and

582
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:18,200
humans' lips taper as they go to the
corner. They're not fullest in the

583
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,360
corner, but that's a really quick,

584
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,120
easy way to inject to put the needle in
on each side and squirt in a bunch of

585
00:39:25,240 --> 00:39:26,073
filler.

586
00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:30,960
And it was so prevalent
amongst the models and in so

587
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,360
many fashion magazines that ladies would
come in and show me the picture and

588
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:36,960
say, "Give me lips like that.

589
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,160
" And I would have to try to talk them
out of it because it wasn't a natural

590
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:43,393
human look.

591
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,760
So it's an example of how media can
really distort our view of what's

592
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,360
not only what's normal
but of what's beautiful.

593
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,240
People's faces do change over time

594
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:00,840
when they're getting just only injections.

595
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:07,040
I just worry about it. And of course
the cost of injections are so high.

596
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,840
It really adds up if
you're going to have Botox,

597
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,200
even if you're going to have Botox
twice a year and not having it three

598
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,080
times a year, which might be the norm.

599
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:26,000
I mean, I probably had Botox for 25 years.

600
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,760
I had it very soon after
it was approved and I

601
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,160
had it until a few years ago now.

602
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,040
Once I passed 95, I said, "That's it.

603
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,760
" I know that when I write
about plastic surgery,

604
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,300
I'm putting people on the operating table.

605
00:40:49,420 --> 00:40:54,300
I know that I'm sending them
to spots and whatnot where

606
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,520
these things are being given
and perhaps not under the best

607
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,500
circumstances because
they're shopping for price,

608
00:41:01,860 --> 00:41:06,460
they're not shopping for quality and
they don't understand that there's

609
00:41:06,540 --> 00:41:10,680
Botox and there's Botox and it
depends on who's injecting it.

610
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,420
The Botox is neutral. I
think it's a good product,

611
00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:21,980
but it's the person who's injecting
it who can make the difference because

612
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,700
they know the anatomy and they know
where it's going to do the best work

613
00:41:27,780 --> 00:41:31,540
and it's not just squirting it
into any old place in the body.

614
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:34,513
Amen.

615
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,000
So you've touched on decision-making
a little bit, but I'm just curious.

616
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,740
Almost everyone has some ambivalence
about doing a cosmetic procedure,

617
00:41:45,620 --> 00:41:48,380
and that's not strictly
medically necessary.

618
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,580
So what's your advice about deciding
to go ahead or not with the cosmetic

619
00:41:52,620 --> 00:41:54,700
procedure? How should people decide?

620
00:41:56,940 --> 00:42:01,780
I think if the cosmetic procedure
is FDA approved, if it needs to be,

621
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,260
that would help because let's say having

622
00:42:07,340 --> 00:42:12,020
industrial silicone injected
into your buttocks is not

623
00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:17,080
FDA approved because we know
how many people have died from

624
00:42:17,860 --> 00:42:22,620
butt injections and it's the fastest

625
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,900
growing procedure right now.

626
00:42:25,660 --> 00:42:28,580
The Brazilian butt lift
is called, I think.

627
00:42:29,820 --> 00:42:34,520
Once industrial silicone gets into
a blood vessel, you're cooked.

628
00:42:34,580 --> 00:42:36,360
That's it. You're dead.

629
00:42:39,660 --> 00:42:40,920
It's subject ended.

630
00:42:41,260 --> 00:42:44,460
Yeah. I mean, it's what I said earlier,

631
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:49,820
safety has to be number one and
at the Plastic Surgery Society,

632
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:55,560
there's been a decades long
or two decades long set

633
00:42:55,600 --> 00:43:00,060
of initiatives about a culture
of safety and examining

634
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:05,760
how things should be performed
to the safest possible

635
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,540
standards, seeing a core
specialties provider,

636
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:15,520
someone who trained in doing
aesthetic treatments as

637
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,900
part of their formal
hospital and residency

638
00:43:20,060 --> 00:43:24,860
training at least means that provider,

639
00:43:25,740 --> 00:43:30,720
that doctor or surgeon has been exposed to

640
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,300
what the safe approach is.

641
00:43:33,380 --> 00:43:37,600
Part of it is also keeping up
over time because standards

642
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,820
change improve as we
learn more and it's very

643
00:43:42,980 --> 00:43:47,960
hard to consume a soundbite

644
00:43:48,100 --> 00:43:53,040
on social media and
think you understand how

645
00:43:53,180 --> 00:43:57,320
to decide about those things
because that just doesn't

646
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,900
encapsulate enough information,

647
00:44:00,820 --> 00:44:02,640
nevermind expertise.

648
00:44:05,180 --> 00:44:06,680
I'm curious about Summer.

649
00:44:07,460 --> 00:44:10,800
I know that she's supposed
to ask questions of me,

650
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:13,540
but I'd like to ask her a question.

651
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:15,160
Okay. Yeah.

652
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,080
Has she ever considered any cosmetic
treatment? She's awfully pretty.

653
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,620
Thank you. I'm pretty young still, so I
haven't seriously considered anything.

654
00:44:26,140 --> 00:44:28,260
The one time I did get Botox,

655
00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:33,220
it was in my masseter to help
my teeth grinding and that was

656
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:37,240
really helpful. I can see why people
would go for cosmetic treatments,

657
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:41,320
but I think I'm too young to
seriously consider plastic surgery,

658
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:43,760
whether it's surgical or nonsurgical.

659
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,020
Are you going to be a doctor?

660
00:44:46,860 --> 00:44:47,060
Yes.

661
00:44:47,060 --> 00:44:48,040
Are you a doctor?

662
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:52,790
No, I'm not a doctor yet. I'm entering
medical school actually next month.

663
00:44:54,250 --> 00:44:57,290
And are you going into plastic surgery?

664
00:44:58,250 --> 00:45:00,510
I'm not sure. I don't think I am.

665
00:45:00,810 --> 00:45:03,510
I do want to go into a surgical field,

666
00:45:03,570 --> 00:45:06,770
but I'm not sure if plastic surgery
is the one that I'm interested in.

667
00:45:07,310 --> 00:45:08,290
I see. Okay.

668
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:13,610
I want to know if Summer has friends
who have had plastic surgery. Of course,

669
00:45:13,710 --> 00:45:16,230
young women tend to... I mean,

670
00:45:17,410 --> 00:45:22,050
these procedures follow kind of ages.

671
00:45:22,890 --> 00:45:25,690
When they're younger, they
worry about their breast.

672
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:31,090
Although I know that they're all worried
about their wrinkle and I know my

673
00:45:32,510 --> 00:45:37,230
18-year-old granddaughters are
worried about getting the best

674
00:45:37,310 --> 00:45:40,730
face cream, which I think
is hysterically funny,

675
00:45:41,190 --> 00:45:45,710
but sad also because they're wasting
their hard-earned money where

676
00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:52,330
they have jobs in the summer
and they're spending it on face

677
00:45:52,410 --> 00:45:56,210
creams at Sephora. I mean,
they have most beautiful skin.

678
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,770
What is the going on
with your young women?

679
00:46:00,250 --> 00:46:02,860
Do you see them a lot
in your office, Larry?

680
00:46:04,130 --> 00:46:08,270
I mean, my practice is focused
on facial rejuvenation,

681
00:46:08,430 --> 00:46:12,990
so I mostly see people
that are 40 and older and

682
00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:17,890
increasingly 60 and older
because actually mean

683
00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:22,790
facelift age in the 30 years
I've been in practice has gone

684
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:23,863
up,

685
00:46:24,210 --> 00:46:28,730
not down because of all the
good alternate treatments we

686
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,340
have that's slow early aging.

687
00:46:33,690 --> 00:46:38,410
But I think there is a concern
and I hear from some of my

688
00:46:38,490 --> 00:46:42,110
colleagues that and in
certain parts of the country,

689
00:46:42,290 --> 00:46:47,270
it's very popular for a 25-year-old to be

690
00:46:47,410 --> 00:46:51,710
doing Botox filler eyelid

691
00:46:51,810 --> 00:46:56,110
plasty, which I completely
do not understand.

692
00:46:56,790 --> 00:47:00,340
They've had liposuction, breast implants,

693
00:47:00,830 --> 00:47:02,330
perhaps rhinoplasty,

694
00:47:02,390 --> 00:47:07,340
and that's an awful lot of work
for someone who's still at their

695
00:47:07,450 --> 00:47:10,630
prime of appearance.
So I like these things.

696
00:47:10,690 --> 00:47:13,510
This is my industry and
I'm in favor of them,

697
00:47:13,890 --> 00:47:18,410
but there is too much of a good
thing. It's not that more is better.

698
00:47:20,190 --> 00:47:23,840
Well, in my movie and
take my nose, please,

699
00:47:25,650 --> 00:47:30,630
I focused on comedians because
comedians are the only people

700
00:47:30,690 --> 00:47:34,890
who are honest about plastic
surgery. If you think about it,

701
00:47:35,730 --> 00:47:37,570
what we know about plastic surgery,

702
00:47:37,910 --> 00:47:42,190
a lot of it comes from
Joe Rivers in the movie.

703
00:47:42,550 --> 00:47:47,390
I had to find people who wanted
plastic surgery but who had

704
00:47:47,470 --> 00:47:50,490
not had it because it doesn't make a good

705
00:47:51,510 --> 00:47:52,590
entertainment.

706
00:47:54,150 --> 00:47:58,730
It's much better I was warned
to find people who wanted

707
00:47:58,830 --> 00:48:03,050
something and then they got it
and you could follow them and

708
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:10,030
you had to accept whatever happened
if it was good news or bad news if

709
00:48:10,090 --> 00:48:11,990
they liked it, if they didn't like it.

710
00:48:12,830 --> 00:48:15,370
I found two fantastic women,

711
00:48:16,570 --> 00:48:21,330
one with a young comedian
in Pittsburgh who

712
00:48:21,490 --> 00:48:26,330
wanted a very simple nose job
because he had the tiniest

713
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:30,250
bump on her nose and the
other was Jackie Hoffman,

714
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:35,090
the curmudgeon who's often seen in

715
00:48:36,210 --> 00:48:37,530
murders in the building.

716
00:48:40,070 --> 00:48:44,690
She was offered a nose job
when she was in her teens

717
00:48:44,990 --> 00:48:49,950
by her mother and she didn't take
it and she decided that maybe

718
00:48:50,030 --> 00:48:51,050
she needed it now,

719
00:48:51,130 --> 00:48:55,690
but she did not want too much
done because her whole livelihood

720
00:48:56,070 --> 00:48:58,430
depended on being kind of funny looking.

721
00:48:59,750 --> 00:49:04,350
The movie is about these two
women and going through surgery

722
00:49:05,290 --> 00:49:10,010
and how they approached it, how
they felt about it in the end.

723
00:49:10,610 --> 00:49:14,690
And there's a wonderful scene
in the picture where Emily,

724
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:16,810
the Pittsburgh comedian,

725
00:49:18,550 --> 00:49:23,390
comes home from New York
where she's had her nose job

726
00:49:24,230 --> 00:49:28,690
and her boyfriend picks her up. I think

727
00:49:30,570 --> 00:49:31,650
they weren't married yet,

728
00:49:32,010 --> 00:49:36,530
but they were living together and he
picks her up at the airport and she says,

729
00:49:37,230 --> 00:49:41,490
"So what do you think?
" She starts to cry.

730
00:49:41,550 --> 00:49:42,383
Oh goodness.

731
00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:47,750
And it's amazing how powerful
friends and family are

732
00:49:48,410 --> 00:49:53,390
at coloring patients'
views of how well something

733
00:49:53,470 --> 00:49:54,303
went.

734
00:49:54,510 --> 00:49:59,470
They can really buoy them or
poison the whole experience.

735
00:49:59,930 --> 00:50:04,490
And rhinoplasty is something
that young people do

736
00:50:04,830 --> 00:50:09,270
that people in their teens
and in twenties frequently do.

737
00:50:10,930 --> 00:50:13,590
So based on your knowledge
of plastic surgery,

738
00:50:13,690 --> 00:50:15,730
your experiences making the movie,

739
00:50:15,790 --> 00:50:20,330
what are some of the challenges
people face in deciding

740
00:50:20,610 --> 00:50:23,850
whether they should do it
and how much they should do?

741
00:50:26,870 --> 00:50:30,930
I lived that experience
because when I had,

742
00:50:31,230 --> 00:50:34,890
I think it was my so -
called second facelift,

743
00:50:35,030 --> 00:50:39,210
which was basically actually
a brow lift and a tiny

744
00:50:39,670 --> 00:50:40,550
shaving down,

745
00:50:41,210 --> 00:50:46,010
a little bump on my nose said
something that was really

746
00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:51,230
from the nose tipping down as it
does when you're older than the

747
00:50:52,010 --> 00:50:53,790
cartilage and in front of your nose,

748
00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:58,730
the tip of your nose starts
hanging down a little. Anyway,

749
00:50:58,870 --> 00:51:03,330
I had a very slight nose
job with my brow lift

750
00:51:04,110 --> 00:51:08,610
and my husband couldn't make up
his mind when he thought about it

751
00:51:09,010 --> 00:51:13,990
for about two weeks or a
month and finally every day

752
00:51:14,050 --> 00:51:18,190
he'd say, "I don't know, Joan.
I don't know John." Oh my God.

753
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:23,190
And then finally one day he looked
at me and he says, "Oh my God,

754
00:51:23,250 --> 00:51:25,150
you look fabulous." I mean,

755
00:51:25,230 --> 00:51:30,050
Robert Goldwyn in his book
about his career as a plastic

756
00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:34,270
surgeon wrote about patients who

757
00:51:35,030 --> 00:51:36,330
would say to a patient,

758
00:51:37,010 --> 00:51:41,110
"What did that doctor do to you?
You look awful

759
00:51:42,310 --> 00:51:46,550
right two days after surgery
when they're all swollen

760
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:51,290
and you shouldn't really not
go to any bitchy friends.".

761
00:51:51,310 --> 00:51:52,410
You really should not,

762
00:51:52,470 --> 00:51:57,390
because that is not the time you feel
the most confident and you need a little

763
00:51:57,530 --> 00:52:01,850
emotional support rather
than getting told off

764
00:52:01,950 --> 00:52:05,790
essentially, or why did
you do this? So Joan,

765
00:52:06,310 --> 00:52:09,850
I know you never stop or even slow down.

766
00:52:10,590 --> 00:52:14,250
So what are you working on now?
Tell us a little bit about that.

767
00:52:15,730 --> 00:52:16,010
Well,

768
00:52:16,010 --> 00:52:20,810
right now I'm writing a memoir of the
1960s when I was in the art world and

769
00:52:21,570 --> 00:52:25,010
I did some projects with Andy Warhol,

770
00:52:25,610 --> 00:52:30,210
Roy Lichtenstein and Robert Indiana who

771
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:35,730
did the love painting and I manufactured a

772
00:52:35,850 --> 00:52:38,030
lovering with his approval.

773
00:52:39,170 --> 00:52:41,350
So I'm writing my memoir of the '60s,

774
00:52:42,110 --> 00:52:46,930
but I'm also trying to raise money
for my film about the history of

775
00:52:46,990 --> 00:52:47,823
Botox,

776
00:52:48,130 --> 00:52:52,750
which has the most interesting
backstory of anything except

777
00:52:53,530 --> 00:52:55,530
healing in plastic surgery.

778
00:52:55,650 --> 00:53:00,250
Botox has a fascinating history
and it has to do with war

779
00:53:01,110 --> 00:53:03,080
and second world war and

780
00:53:04,990 --> 00:53:09,350
I guess I know more about the history
of Botox than anybody in the world right

781
00:53:09,570 --> 00:53:10,403
now,

782
00:53:11,170 --> 00:53:16,090
but it's very hard to raise money
and we have a really interesting and

783
00:53:16,190 --> 00:53:21,030
entertaining way to talk about it and we

784
00:53:21,090 --> 00:53:24,190
have a sizzle reel that everybody
thinks is just brilliant,

785
00:53:24,830 --> 00:53:29,830
but we can't apparently somebody
just told me the other day

786
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:34,670
that when you spend $3 million on a movie,

787
00:53:34,750 --> 00:53:39,310
you might only get a million and
a half when you sell it to Netflix

788
00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:43,890
or Hulu. And so investors
don't want to invest with you.

789
00:53:45,350 --> 00:53:46,810
That makes sense. But Will,

790
00:53:47,690 --> 00:53:52,630
it is a fascinating story
about what has become head and

791
00:53:52,770 --> 00:53:57,730
shoulders the number one
most popular cosmetic

792
00:53:57,810 --> 00:54:01,570
treatment in the United States
and the rest of the world.

793
00:54:02,030 --> 00:54:03,850
There's fascinating science,

794
00:54:04,830 --> 00:54:07,570
the whole development
process is fascinating.

795
00:54:08,070 --> 00:54:13,070
So I hope you do get to tell
that story and I'll cross my

796
00:54:13,170 --> 00:54:17,850
fingers that there's an
investor who knows how

797
00:54:17,950 --> 00:54:21,630
interesting this would be and you
get a chance to make that film.

798
00:54:23,830 --> 00:54:28,650
Well, from your Math to
God's ears, as I say,

799
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:34,990
I've had a lot of really
interesting years researching it.

800
00:54:35,230 --> 00:54:39,350
I went to four Botox
factories, I mean, excuse me,

801
00:54:39,470 --> 00:54:41,430
botulinumtoxin factories.

802
00:54:42,730 --> 00:54:47,730
Everybody thinks a film about Botox
must be about before and after

803
00:54:47,770 --> 00:54:51,590
picture has nothing to do
with the cosmetic injections

804
00:54:52,810 --> 00:54:55,070
until just recently. I mean,

805
00:54:55,470 --> 00:55:00,350
botulinum toxin is being
investigated for all

806
00:55:00,470 --> 00:55:01,890
kinds of... I mean,

807
00:55:02,290 --> 00:55:06,930
they're testing it now for atrial
fibrillation for certain cancers.

808
00:55:07,590 --> 00:55:10,290
It's the miracle drug of the 21st century.

809
00:55:11,310 --> 00:55:16,230
It has so many possibilities and
it has such an ugly past that's

810
00:55:16,250 --> 00:55:19,930
just fascinating. What can I say?

811
00:55:21,350 --> 00:55:25,890
And then what's your vision
of the future for medical,

812
00:55:25,990 --> 00:55:27,630
surgical, and non-medical beauty?

813
00:55:31,030 --> 00:55:31,863
Well,

814
00:55:32,010 --> 00:55:36,430
I don't ever believe that it's going
to be fashionable not to be beautiful.

815
00:55:37,510 --> 00:55:42,450
I mean, I certainly think
that we value women with

816
00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:45,470
intelligence and personality,

817
00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:48,410
but I don't think that beauty,

818
00:55:49,750 --> 00:55:54,470
the quest for beauty is going to go
away because there is something about

819
00:55:54,550 --> 00:55:55,870
beautiful things,

820
00:55:56,030 --> 00:56:00,650
beautiful people that
is beyond describing.

821
00:56:01,190 --> 00:56:05,650
You cannot really describe the
attraction of beauty. I mean,

822
00:56:05,730 --> 00:56:08,350
beauty in nature, beauty in humans,

823
00:56:08,430 --> 00:56:13,210
beauty in animals is something
that's one of the pleasures of

824
00:56:13,290 --> 00:56:18,210
life, just like good food and
that's not going to go away.

825
00:56:18,930 --> 00:56:23,650
And I just hope that it becomes
easier and more affordable for people

826
00:56:24,290 --> 00:56:26,270
to make changes.

827
00:56:26,890 --> 00:56:29,930
I think that anytime
something is invented,

828
00:56:31,170 --> 00:56:33,330
people are going to use it if it's there.

829
00:56:33,530 --> 00:56:38,270
It's just like unfortunately just like
a certain bomb that we know about.

830
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:39,703
If it's there,

831
00:56:40,630 --> 00:56:44,570
it's always a possibility that
someone will use it. I mean,

832
00:56:44,830 --> 00:56:49,110
beauty procedures can make such
a difference in people's lives.

833
00:56:49,770 --> 00:56:54,390
It's not going to go away that people
make judgements about people on their

834
00:56:54,450 --> 00:56:57,670
appearance. Other things enter into it,

835
00:56:58,530 --> 00:57:03,150
but beauty is part of it
and they're all different

836
00:57:03,830 --> 00:57:08,050
levels and characteristics of beauty.

837
00:57:08,750 --> 00:57:11,010
So there's not just on beauty standard,

838
00:57:11,750 --> 00:57:16,210
but I just think it's always
going to be a part of life

839
00:57:16,950 --> 00:57:21,410
as we know it unless everybody
just wears a spacesuit and

840
00:57:21,690 --> 00:57:26,050
nobody ever sees their body.
They're completely living in

841
00:57:28,130 --> 00:57:30,690
a controlled environment in a space suit

842
00:57:33,050 --> 00:57:34,610
and who knows what the future will bring.

843
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:38,910
Well, it's interesting over,

844
00:57:38,990 --> 00:57:43,850
we've been talking about changes over
time and plastic surgery really has

845
00:57:43,950 --> 00:57:48,330
gone from socialites
and starlets to a very

846
00:57:48,510 --> 00:57:53,070
mainstream sort of experience that many,

847
00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:57,970
many Americans have had a
chance to participate in and

848
00:57:58,030 --> 00:58:01,990
hopefully that kind of trend
continues and it's also become

849
00:58:03,230 --> 00:58:07,570
less surgical, even the
surgery is faster, easier,

850
00:58:07,750 --> 00:58:08,790
less recovery.

851
00:58:09,730 --> 00:58:13,670
And those things hopefully
make it easier for people to

852
00:58:14,410 --> 00:58:18,910
participate and enjoy
and reap the benefits of

853
00:58:20,310 --> 00:58:21,143
beauty.

854
00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:24,910
Well, it levels the
playing field, doesn't it?

855
00:58:25,610 --> 00:58:29,730
It used to be that you had to be born
beautiful and now you don't have to be

856
00:58:29,850 --> 00:58:30,683
born beautiful.

857
00:58:31,230 --> 00:58:36,010
You can make some small adjustments
and you can be considered quite

858
00:58:36,050 --> 00:58:36,883
attractive.

859
00:58:37,750 --> 00:58:38,490
Well, Joan,

860
00:58:38,490 --> 00:58:43,110
I'd really like to thank you for
joining us today for this discussion of

861
00:58:43,470 --> 00:58:45,550
Beauty Trends, Past and Future.

862
00:58:46,090 --> 00:58:48,730
It's been a delight
having you on the podcast.

863
00:58:49,290 --> 00:58:54,190
You are certainly a media titan
who can discuss this from the

864
00:58:54,230 --> 00:58:59,150
journalism perspective with decades
and decades of focused reporting in

865
00:58:59,190 --> 00:59:00,023
this area.

866
00:59:00,930 --> 00:59:01,890
Well, thank you, Larry.

867
00:59:02,010 --> 00:59:06,310
It's fun to talk about it and just so
happy we didn't have to talk about my

868
00:59:06,350 --> 00:59:07,183
facelifts.

869
00:59:09,130 --> 00:59:09,910
Thank you. Well,

870
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:13,590
I promised you we could talk about
anything in beauty you wanted.

871
00:59:14,190 --> 00:59:18,610
It didn't have to be facelifts
because there's so much more to it,

872
00:59:18,730 --> 00:59:19,563
isn't there?

873
00:59:20,330 --> 00:59:22,000
But I don't tell 50%.

874
00:59:23,490 --> 00:59:26,640
I always told the whole story.
I want you to know that.

875
00:59:29,630 --> 00:59:32,150
And we're all better off as a result.

876
00:59:32,170 --> 00:59:34,920
Of it. I understand why
people only tell 50%

877
00:59:37,210 --> 00:59:38,043
because

878
00:59:39,470 --> 00:59:44,190
they're all these judgmental people and
going to make comment the minute and I

879
00:59:44,450 --> 00:59:47,430
don't blame them enough said. Thank you.

880
00:59:49,490 --> 00:59:49,930
Yeah.

881
00:59:49,930 --> 00:59:54,470
I also want to thank you for joining us
and for sharing your fascinating history

882
00:59:54,530 --> 00:59:58,510
of the past decades in plastic surgery
as well as your vision for the future.

883
00:59:59,310 --> 01:00:01,450
Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.

884
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:06,570
Thank you for listening to the Park
Avenue Plastic Surgery Class Podcast.

885
01:00:06,770 --> 01:00:09,310
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886
01:00:09,450 --> 01:00:10,790
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887
01:00:11,130 --> 01:00:14,570
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888
01:00:14,630 --> 01:00:18,140
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889
01:00:18,220 --> 01:00:19,160
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890
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:24,080
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891
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,320
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